6 Responses to “speechless!”

  1. 1 ritvars September 13, 2008 at 5:15 pm

    It’s all about what is the NATO for:
    a) for honouring the treaty and coming to help allies, be it Georgia (if admitted), Latvia or Canada;
    b) for wiping an arse with the treaty and flushing down.
    Mrs. Palin obviously is of the former opinion.

  2. 2 lwtc247 September 13, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    You are my first latvian commentator. Thank you and welcome.

    But what if Georgia attacked Russian citizens again (as they did last time – Press TV reports almost 2000 people were killed). Russia has the right to respond yes? Does that mean NATO would/should attack Russia?

    If Georgia thought yes to that question, then it would actually embolden elements within Georgia to attack S.O. and Abkhazia, because the Georgian leadership would gamble that Russia would never dare respond, for fear of ending up going to war against NATO.

    And when you think about false flag/covert operations… My God!

    The senario of a nuclear exchange becomes real. Just look at WW1 with Russia being accused of assassination of Franz Ferdinand. There are strong suggestions that was a 3rd party false flag. We also have the Reistag fire, Mossadeq, Allende, Gulf of Tonken, USS Liberty, most likely 9-11, the Ryazan apartment hexagen bombings, possibly the London 7-7 bombings, The Italian fascist/communist bombings. Most of the se had serious consequences.

    The possiblity of a false flag easily precipitation an major act of retaliation is far too huge to allow a simple clause in a NATO document to say if one member is attacked, all will join in. (Note: I don’t actually know that part and I’m tired to look it up now)

    With nuclear submarines sitting at the bottom of the worlds oceans, there could NEVER be any winner in any kind of war. No sides would restrict themselves to conventional warfare and the power of conventional weapons is so huge (Russias vacuum bomb, the US’s MOAB. Conventional war cannot yield a victory for anyone, and all the while, the temptation to use nukes would probably grow. Especially if Military and political leaders in C&C facilites came under attack. Neither side could possibly destroy one side without themselves being destroyed

    How can we be so casual about this? Mass slaughter is but a stones throw away.

    Whats your opinion about that clause in the NATO treaty? Perhaps you know it better than me (wouldn’t be hard I suppose).

  3. 3 ritvars September 14, 2008 at 9:53 am

    First, let’s have a look on the NATO treaty. The famous Article 5 states:
    “The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.”
    May I point it covers attacks on the members not by the members.
    Second, as for actual Georgian war.
    Reports of 1400-1600-2000-thousands dead have been deliberate Russian lies. Local hospital data and Human Rights Watch assessment was ~40 in the first days, the same number (“tens”) slipped out of Putin’s tongue in Vladikavkaz when he awarded troops for deeds in Georgia. The official Russian investigators have established 134 civilian deaths in South Ossetia.
    A road to the present trouble in Georgia was opened this spring when the Old Europe gave in to Russia and refused the NATO membership action plan to Georgia and Ukraine. Since then, the Kremlin steadily raised tensions: Russian military plane flights over Georgia, assassination attempt on the head of pro-Georgian administration of South Ossetia, roadside bombs targeting Georgian officials, shelling of Georgian vilages in South Ossetia etc. In early August, Tskhinvali was evacuated and Russian 58th army deployed in South Ossetia. Even the official paper of the Russian War Ministry “Krasnaya Zvezda” unwittingly acknowledges it. Georgians were basically forced either to be slowly pushed out of South Ossetia or to do something.
    Don’t be fooled about protection of Russian citizens. A concept of Russian compatriots and their protection was invented in early 90ties for a pretext to keep former captive nations in submission. Ethnic Russians abroad or Russian passport holders are pawns to achieve Russian imperialist objectives.

  4. 4 lwtc247 September 14, 2008 at 11:15 am

    Hi again and thanks for the informative post.

    “May I point it covers attacks on the members not by the members.” – yes, but the fact that the US and UK have spun, twisted and lied about many treaties etc is well known. If they wanted to, they could easily argue, Russia retaliation against a Georgian attack is an attack on a NATO member.

    NATO (an organisation from whom lies flow freely – as demonstrated in Afghanistan) could accuse Russia of orchestrating an attack against Russia as an excuse to attack Georgia, but it could be Georgia make it appear to like the Russian did black-op against itself.

    IF the NATO treaty said “Article 5 will not apply when a member country is the initiator of aggression” then I’d be a bit more happy.

    But it doesn’t say that. It seems ambiguous and because the people draughting it should have imagined such a scenario I can only conclude it is deliberately ambiguous.

    Thanks for news of the 134 deaths. It did seem like 2000 didn’t really fit observations. Even the western press was able to display many bodies to blame Russia with. But 134 people killed is horrible and 134 too many.

    I wasn’t aware of what you say were anti-Georgian actions, such as roadside bombs and assassination attempts, before the official outbreak of the conflict, but I say the Russian plane shoot down a Georgian drone. If these hostile actions are true, It’s no great shock to me. I’m not pro-Russia by any means, but I do know the west gives them a bum deal almost all of the time and the crimes of Russia pale in comparison with that of the US and UK.

    Re: Russian citizenship. It does look like a ploy to allow Russia to leap into action, but the impression I got was that people were genuinely happy to have Russian citizenship. When you consider Georgia ended up shelling what used to be Georgians it’s not surprising to see why.

    I guess your strongly against Russia’s actions. Which is fair enough. If Russia is acting out some kind of imperial or ‘master of the sphere of influence’ fantasy, then it deserves to be criticised. One can look at the Media ‘freedom’ in Russia as a measure of it’s level of fascism. But What a sad planet we have though when Russia and the Zusuk behave this way. Just look at what Russia did in Chechnya and the mupprt puppet ‘near-monarch’ they’ve installed there today.

  5. 5 lwtc247 September 14, 2008 at 2:37 pm

    Dewar Ritvars.
    I don’t know if this will be of interest to you, but there’s a political blog in the UK called Blairwatch. One of the Blairwatch team has done an interview with the Georgian minister for education Ghia Nodia.

    I’ve not had time to listen to it yet, but I thought you may like to listen.

    [audio src="http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/podcasts/ghianodia.mp3" /]


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