I’m a scholar – so push off!
I often get that feeling when hearing so called ‘knowledgeable people talk’. But as it’s a feeling, I concede it could be wrong. Such harsh and direct words are seldom spoken, but is it entirely your fault if that is the impression you are given?
Can scholars only be taught things from scholars above them? I don’t think so, but again, that’s the impression that comes across quite often when I hear supposed ‘scholarly’ people speak. “Your opinion isn’t more correct than mine because I have more knowledge that you” That seems very arrogant. How does the ‘scholar’ know the full extent of the “less scholarly” persons line of reasoning and the extent of his knowledge?
This does NOT mean a supposedly learned person should not be allowed to say “No”, or “I think you are wrong” to somebody, but they MUST EXPLAIN WHY it may be wrong. Because the scholars explanation might be flawed and if so, it should show itself as the scholar is delivering his explanation.
Failure to openly discuss sounds alarm bells with me. It’s a near sure-fire sign that the ‘scholar’ is grasping at straws – and I suspect if they were honest with themselves – they would admit it.
And it’s worse when others blindly defend so called scholars/wise men. Admiration of some flawed man to the extent that you will never listen to others pointing out the flaws in his argument is actually a disgrace on you. For you attribute flawlessness onto that person which is dabbling in Shirk (putting something at the same level of God). If you want to stick up for someone, fine! Good! Some people are great people. Some are very wise, some very moral. But you too must address the issues relating to the criticism of that person.
Aren’t all men (and all men that have ever been) flawed in some way. They are MEN yes? They are NOT God, yes? So aren’t they flawed?
Idolisation of men is rife these days. By that I mean idol supporters refuse to listen to valid criticism of their idols/heros – and most importantly refuse to see if there is any basis behind such criticism.
What’s this latest thing that is putting ants in my pants?
All this kicked off from the following article: Conspiracy Practice by Shaykh Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi, which honestly speaking, contains really preposterous elements to it. I sent off a letter to the gentleman concerned and got no reply. I then had a ‘conversation’ about it with someone who I would regard as scholarly. The author of the piece, Shaykh Abdal Qadir as Sufi is a respected scholar., indeed one of my good friends told me about him some time ago.
The heart of a discussion involved God, 9-11 and Evil. {BTW: The scholar rejected forensic evidence as the basis for saying it legally proves(within Islamic jurisprudence that 9-11 was an inside job, and Shaykh Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi totally ignored any mention of any physical evidence}
Does God ‘do’ evil? Does God create evil? Is God responsible for evil? Did God ‘do’ 9-11? Are there any differences between those statements?.. etc…
In the conversation, the scholarly person said the answer was “Yes”. God Decrees evil.
It presupposed some Islamic beliefs. As we are both Muslims, that is understandable. The scholars reasoning went something like this…
Nothing can be outside the Tawhid (Oneness) of God. Everything is created by God. If evil or badness exists it is because God created it. Everything is within Gods domain. The scholar is saying God has decreed everything, evil and 9-11.
I was told “there is no dispute among people of knowledge about this.”
I could feel sore about the insult, I want my Islamic brotherly feeling towards him try and help me ignore it, although I would be lying to say I have the strength of character to let it go without residual unhappy feelings :(
But to me, what this person said seemed to be something like blasphemy. I was willing to accept this view if it was explained to me.
But it wasn’t.
A few interpretations which could equally be interpreted in another way was all that was offered.
Thing is, I feel like I’m in a bit of a panic! Because if he is right, then I must be a terrible Muslim because he is saying I am putting something outside Gods power.
I certainly don’t intend to say that, but I know full well that people who believe in something can be blinded by it, and in fact, the Qur’an warns that there are people who have no perception of them being on the wrong path. Is this happening to me? Am I somehow unable to see any really bit pitfall that I’m in? It could well be – The Qur’an indicates so, and I’m not going to argure against the Qur’an.
So I pursued the matter, quite scared that my belief and understanding of God* had for years been seriously flawed.
I put to him my understanding of the situaton, and asked a few Q’s of him, but my points went unanswered as were my questions, unless you call ‘answering a question with a question’ an answer. On rare occaison ok, I can tolerate that, but surely, to keep on doing that gets a bit silly.
When one answers a Q with a Q, (in terms of having honourable intentions) is usually to get the questioner to reflect on their initial Q, because the initial Q may have been flawed/illegitimate, and the person bouncing back the Q, wants the initial questioner to see that. But surely there is a fine line between doing that (as a way of improving learning and discourse) and being annoying. When abused, it can be a sign of “I’m an intellectual fortress don’t you know?” or “I’m a scholar – so push off!” It’s dam easy to answer a Q with a Q. Repeatedly doing so isn’t polite when it provokes agitation. And there is no sanctity of conforming to the movie portrayl of Asian-mystic/Kung-Fu/Buddhist apprentice scenes, where it’s a measure of the ‘good apprentice’ is governeed by how much he can take all the riddles and so forth from his ‘wise’ master like the modern characterature of Confucius or Lao Tzu.
Is it an absolute necessity for a wise man to answer a question with another question? I think just giving the answer is useful too! But hey, I’m not a scholar so I would say that right???
On one occasion however, the scholar took what I said, inverted it and said words to the effect that he couldn’t believe I said that. I was flabbergasted.
I said “there is no dependence on the Creator by creation”
He replied: “[the statement] is entirely the opposite of the reality; the creation is completely dependent on the Creator for its existence, for its attributes and for its actions.”
Was my crappy typing and worse spelling wasn’t to blame here? I don’t think so. What I said was perfectly clear. When I pointed out to him that his ‘correction’ was in fact exactly what I had said, he offered no apology at all, even though what he said I had ‘said’, was really something terrible!
Well, more of the convo was quite unsatisfactory. In line with what we were saying I said to him “I have never found any reference to ‘God decrees evil’ in the Qur’an. this could well be a failing on my behalf. Could you please give me the Surah and Ayat? It is quite important.”
He offered:
“35 Every self will taste death. We test you with both good and evil as a trial. And you will be returned to Us.” (21:35)”
Now I may be wrong here, but in the context of My belief that God does NOT ‘do’ evil, the ‘test’ here is, man by his free will, has the ability to do good and evil. If he is righteous he will pass the test and avoid doing evil? the scholar seemed to be saying God will put evil upon us and if we come through that evil then we have passed the test. I think our lines of reasoning are quite different.
The scholar said supported his position “The good and the evil are of His decree.“ and “Iman is that you believe in… and that the decree, the good of it and the bad of it is from Allah.”
The scholar quoted:
“Every self will taste death. We test you with both good and evil as a trial. And you will be returned to Us. (21:35)” Remember we inherited an idea of evil as an absolute, but that is not our perspective as Muslims. Good and evil are relative. Allah is the absolute.
“He [Jibril] said, ‘Tell me about iman.’ He [the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace] said, ‘That you believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and that you believe in the Decree, the good (khayr) of it and the bad (sharr) of it.’ He [Jibril] said, ‘You have told the truth.’”
Imam an-Nawawi said: The position of the people of Truth is confirmation of the Decree. Its meaning is that Allah decreed things before time, and He knew that they would come about at times known to Him and in places known to Him, and that they would come about according to how Allah had decreed.
Imam an-Nawawi further said: Allah created good and bad, and decreed their coming to the slave at known times. … He (Allah) said, “Say, ‘I seek refuge with the Lord of daybreak, from the evil of what He has created…'””
It is clear the scholar is saying my understanding of God is wrong and that he believes evil is by Gods decree.
Frustratingly he repeatedly failed to answer my subsequent points.
I replied:
[That] Is very interesting statement (Re:He decreed everything that has been, that is and that is to be. The good and the evil are of His decree.). No body can second guess God, but I’ve never heard anyone claim God decrees evil! I was of the opinion God decreed within man the abilty of free will. That free will and physical eminations thereof, is allowed to have consequence. {I’m saying when man exercises that free will he causes evil}
The 99 names Allah Ta’ala are positivisms. They are not coupled or in anyway connected with their antonym. {I am saying there is no ‘bad’ attributes of God}
The evil will of man did 9-11, not God’s evil.
It was immensely frustrating that he totally avoided the ‘free will’ issue. I see it like this… God knows everything. He knows the tiniest details of our lives, even those which haven’t happened yet. He knows ALL pathways our lives could ever travel down.
His decree is that that we have free will – the choice. His Decree means that if we choose a branch point on the path of life, then his prescribed decree for that particular choice or path will therefore happen. He therefore knows the outcome of our choices before we make them. A critical question is, does he know WHICH choice we will make. I would have to say yes, but then we run into the problem of “Was it then free will?” and “Did God decree that choice?” I’d have to say No, God didn’t decree/force us to make that choice (but he does and can force a consequence of that choice). If he Decreed that path it wouldn’t have been an actual ‘choice’. It would make an irrelevance out of our free will. So what of the question “Did he know the choice we were going to make?”
The scholar (if we were to actually address my points) might have said “You are saying Allah(SWT) doesn’t know which path we are going down and therefore God is ignorant of something – which is clearly impossible.
I think it’s fair to say without question that he knows the outcome of the choice, but did he know which choice we would make? Yes, God knows everything, but he didn’t force it upon is. I don’t see any problem with that.
Well, we are trying to second guess God using Human logic which seems very likely to me to actually be a ridiculous thing to do. And for a human stuck in physical time to understands things that don’t conform to linear time is also very difficult. God of course not only because he is indepenedent of and the creator of time, knows everything. He knows what is uncertain for us.
At the risk of repeating myself, Can what the scholar said “Allah creates and decrees both good-khayr and bad-sharr.” Could that mean He Decrees if man decides to do an evil act then that evil act shall come about – i.e. God creates /brings forth the pathway that the evil doer wants to happen? The scholar seemed to say no (but didn’t say so directly) and me, of the unscholarly opinion, thinks the answer is yes.
If there was no man, would there be evil? I don’t think there would. The Angels are incapable of evil as they have no free will. Didn’t Iblis exercise free will (and therefore can’t be an angel) and refused to obey Gods command to bow before man? Is there not another lesson that free will allows for the evil to occur? Allah(SWT) allowed the choice for evil to actually bring about evil.
Is my understanding of God wrong? Should I see evil as a Decree from God in the sense that God initiates evil as the scholar was suggesting, and not that God creates it in the sence he creates it and allows it to happen consequentially on the desires of men to do evil acts?
-As usual I’ll probably have to come back at a later date and ‘fix’ aspects this post. Try as I might I seem unable to adjust my copy and paste composition / multiple rewrites of various parts, even on the small scale, So there is likely to be silly errors and typos and other errors in this post. But it is sincere, and I really want to know..
footnote:
* I mean in as much as a person can understand God. I have often thought it futile to understand/debate God because I, as a silly little human with a brain the size of melon, with a conscious mind so full of silly things and strange habits/behaviours, and being a person of a meaningless life (outside worshiping Allah(SWT) and that such a life span is really amazingly short, and that I need to rely on silly human flawed models to understand the physical universe, entirely based on things I have previous knowledge. All that means, if such an explanation was ever needed in the first place, that I or anyone can never ever hope to understand God in anything near His Glory. It is not debated that we have the choice to do evil right?. Anyway, to end with, the best case for God, to stop second guessing him according to silly human notions, is the Qur’an. I as a silly person cannot ever hope to explain God even on the tinyest scale than the Qur’an can.
Reading the Qur’an is the guidance for everyone.
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Living with the Conspiracy 24-7 
Actually there is another closely related issue here, and it’s suitable for the ‘comments’ section.
That is the diversity of opinion amongst the scholars.
Female circumcision / buying of shares / Halal murdarabah (Islamic banking) / Female circumcision / The level of guilt of an electorate as to the crimes of their government / abortion / acceptance and tolerance of homosexuals / Using paper money and not gold/silver/wheat/dates/barley/rice etc. etc…
The answer you get very much depends on who you ask. My Ustaz for example – a really mice guy says female circumcision is compulsory (or they behave like animals is what he said – either in jest or seriousness – I don’t know) but others say no.
There was even some discussion (but likely propaganda, and the scholarly nature of those who brought this issue up is questionable) as to whether a man could have anal sex with his wife.
That’s part of the problem. Who to listen to? Or does one have the responsibility to read the Qur’an and decide from himself based on a sincere unbiased/unspun understanding of the Qur’an? Remember the Qur’an is for all people for all times. This includes the more simple village folk right? who surely have the right to hold trials?
And I will add this…
In NO WAY from what I say here, can constitute an ‘attack’ or slurr on Shaykh Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi, despite what some people (Muslims included) may wish it to be. It is a simple matter of me being of the opinion that he is foolishly wrong about 9-11 and the Zionist bankers.
That’s the be all and end all of it.
To those hero worshipers: Do you think Dr. Abdalqadir would ever for one moment pretend he could never be wrong?
There are only a few things one can NEVER be wrong about, and that is what Allah tells us in the Qur’an, such as the Tawhid of Allah(SAT), the Angels, His Book, the Prophets, The last Day, All creation is from Allah(SWT). Predestination is suggested as being an article of faith after the death of the holy prophet Muhammad(saw), I question it but don’t reject it in its entirity.
And actually, the ‘evil’ discussion was with someone else.
As-salamu alaikum,
You see –lwtc247–, it is amazing that you withdrew from a conversation between ‘friends’ on Facebook leaving me talking to myself, and then you write about me telling you to ‘push off’.
–Ab–
Waalaikumassalam.
Unfortunately like much of what was discussed on Facebook, you have repeated the same error here, and not really understood much of what I have said, nor have you addressed it.
You will hopefully recall one of the last things I said was words to the effect of “I would seek more scholarly advice.” By writing about it in this medium, that objective is on the way to being met, as it will be when I {old typo said ‘it’} discuss it with a number of religious teachers I plan to discuss this ‘God Decrees evil’ topic with.
Hopefully doing this will allow the numerous points I raised to recieve an answer, which e.g. the forensic evidence of 9-11 and also the implications of free will of man as to ‘evil’. These are serious points that were not addressed; it’s a pity the opportunity wasn’t taken here either.
And the ‘push off’ bit, it was not in fact levvied against you. It was my general opening statement which, if you read a previous post of mine (see here: The coming of the white imams you may understand better. That post, as indicated in this post follows on from “talks I have attended” I have never attended a talk given by your good self.
InsysAllah you will spend some time evaluating the opening line which got to heart of this specific post, i.e. the sentence:
“What’s this latest thing that is putting ants in my pants?” That may also reveal something, as should my sincere honesty that I may be in serious error as to my understand of God and Islam.
You will have to forgive me brother (again), for openly telling you that a lot of what I have said to you only in realtion to 9-11 has been ignored or inverted and offered back in negative sense. I spent some time wondering why that may be. But as this post indiates, Muslim brotherhood will InsysAllah ultimately overcome this.
I haven’t a clue how you react to honest opinions and honest discussion, I only hope you refelct on what I say and respond accordingly.
As I finish, I would like to say that on the 9-11 thread, you may notice a significant absence between the last few days of my last sets of posts. This might suggest, as is indeed the case, that in fact I didn’t have much time to develop that serious discussion in the manner required, and one could therefore be forgiven for thinking that my busy time contunued past the date of my last posting. You have called this ‘withrawing’ from a conversation, which is kind of right, but not it seems in the manner in which you meant.
I had not used faceook for some time as I’ve got a number of other serious things to do and I was flooded with notifications due to being tagged in a Eid Celebration posting, so much so that I felt I had to withdraw myself from that post – which I did by deleting the tag.
You will also hopefully see that from this and indeed all past discussion with you, that I have been fully open and honest with you and I have attempted to be frank.
You advised people to read multiple times the article “Conspiracy Practice”. It was an article which I read some some time before you mande mention of it. That advice to read and re-read was quite interesting.
Hopefully all that I have said here will result in some discussion of the points I have raised.
Please feel free to point out ANY factual inaccuracies said in the main post or subsequent comments.
May Allah guide us.
As-salamu alaikum,
The truth is that we were in a completely civil discussion, and suddenly I was alone with no response from you. Then I find an article blaming me (although not naming me) for all manner of things and refuting everything I said in conversation on Facebook, finding fault with me in considerable detail, and moreover blaming me for not responding, when it was you who had withdrawn from the conversation without responding to my detailed answers to your questions.
Abdassamad Clarke
Salam wbt.
“suddenly I was alone with no response from you.” I never indiated any desire to terminate the discussion. I was temporarily busy. The frequency of posts showed even after a brief break, that I had come back to try and make progress in the discussion.
This article was one way in which to get those other opinions I told you about and then, continue the debate on facebook.
I am not blaming you for anything. I expressed high frustration at my points not answered, points which were being left behind as the discussion wondered on, e.g. the free will of man. As for refuting everything you have said, the counter points I made here are for the benefit of third parties – those not privvy to facebook – so they can see my understanding (and any flaws in it) as well as yours so that a productive opinion can be expressed.
I’m not finding fault in you, personally, other than the context of the mechanics of the discussion. I am proud of the various commonalities we discovered that we shared with each other.
If you have since given detailed answers to the will of man and forensic evidence etc, that I mentioned earlier in the discussion, then thank you. I very much appreciate it, and I will, InsyaAllah return to face book and read the replies you gave. (I still intend to discuss matters with other people whose knowledge I respect)
The biggest size text of this post starts off by asking “Is my understanding of God wrong?” Achi, that is my intenstion – I expressed fear that the fault is with me, but yes, if I’m right then perhaps you are wrong. If repsected people would like to point out any other faults I have made, then they are openly invired to do so. Some of those people choose not to post here in public however.
I will return and read all that you have written, and I hope to learn and improve from it. I respect your depth of your knowledge. Deep knowledge is usually more free from error. Shallow knowledge – like mine, isn’t. But that isn’t to say shallow knoeldge is always wrong, and it doesn’t stop those wise people from being very wrong on occasions.
My second comment I made on this post actually showed me anticipating people thinking I was saying something like Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi told me to push off. I didn’t expect people to think I was addressing you. I didn’t expect you to think I was addressing you.
Brother, I felt absolutely awful when I read your reply here. I want no friction between us, but perhaps my blunteness has caused this? Whatever. May all wrongdoing me mine and may you forgive that wrong doing.
As-salamu alaikum, I come to you via Dr.M. Reading this particular post about who to believe when it comes to understanding Islam I am reminded about my own position 2 or 3 years ago. I had a real crises of faith.
Spending time researching Islam I found many “scholars” disagreed with each other, and I disagreed with some things scholars said, and agreed with other things that those same scholars said. The whole basis of what I believed in was being questioned, but the crisis made me research and answer the questions that were unanswered. I understand, for instance, from a person that I regard as a scholar that one can either believe in Creationism or The Big Bang and Evolution and still consider yourself Muslim.
Indeed. What is a Muslim? A Muslim is someone who believes in Allah, and that Mohammed (pbuh) is his prophet. The Qur’an has not defined a “bad” or a “good” Muslim. Just Muslim. It is man who labels other man and this labelling is not un-biased or without judgement.
I’ve found that the key is for you to be comfortable with your own understanding of Islam. In effect, yes, you must educate yourself and that includes listening to what respected scholars have to say, but at the end of the day, no scholar can interpose between you and Allah and so you must take responsibility for either agreeing or disagreeing with a scholar.
If a scholar quotes the Qur’an or Hadith or whatever as an answer to your question, go to that source and understand the context and meaning of the quote. In isolation, we can take individual passages to mean many things, but only when placed within the context of rest of the Qur’an or Hadith can an individual quote be understood. Perhaps even scholars have misunderstood the meaning and context of the quote, and perhaps you disagree with them about it. Just because they are a “scholar” (how does one officially become a “scholar”? Who bestows this label on someone?) this does not mean that they are always right. True scholars understand that they never stop learning and that we can learn about ourselves and about Allah and Islam from other people, even non-Muslims.
I’d even go so far as to say that you must listen to conflicting arguments on Islamic jurisprudence and then form your own decision as to what is the correct interpretation. When the Nazis faced trail for war crimes, the defence “I was just following orders” was not acceptable, and so, when you finally face Allah, saying that you were just doing what a scholar told you will be just as unacceptable.
The object of Islam is not submission to a scholar. Would that not imply that you have no personal responsibility for anything you do? Would that not imply that serving the scholar is better than serving Allah? Take the issuing of a fatwah. If two scholars of equal standing issue conflicting fatwahs, how do you decide which fatwah is correct, and which is false? Perhaps they both contain some truth, but maybe each does not contain the whole truth? So you must learn to rely upon your own judgement, taking into account the context of the arguments, the sources quoted, and your own intuition.
If a scholar continually answers a question with a question and cannot relay a simple, direct answer to you, that would be a signal, in my mind at least, to question their knowledge and their understanding not only of Islam, but of you and the truth you are trying to seek.
Waalaikumassalam and thank you for your time in composing this honest reply. I happen to agree with a lot of what you say.
If I gave the impression my faith is wavering, then I would like to clarify my belief in Islam is the most solid part of me. Any problem or ‘crisis’ could never(insyaAllah) make me lose faith, rather, shift my understanding of that faith, or clarify it, because I know it any ‘problem’ will be rooted in me. Laziness or lack of knowledge, or people making unwarranted claims. Since becoming a Muslim, I’ve had a number of people say things like ‘Not having a beard is Haram’ or ‘I have to give up my name’. I’m sure you could tell a few tales of this as well.
And I guess many people have done the “that is haram
“ thing, inc myself, however those cases were pretty clear (but everyoe probably would say that – lol)
One problem I don’t like is when people try to ‘fix’ something that the propet himself didn’t fix. Or they HAVE to give a judgement, or they make an interpretation/extrapolation that the prophet didn’t!
If people just stuck to what the prophet did there would be no need n there would be no problem.
I agree when you advise listening to scholars, but more often than should be the case, I find some things they say (esp about the modern world) rather daft and on quizzing them, they brush you off. The killer is of course, when scholars differ, which is OK, but if these differences start to impact upon the Muslim-Muslim relationships then they are bad.
I should say that is problem seems to lie more towards a scholars followers, rather than the scholar himself. Take Iraq. Ordinary Sunni and Shi’ah living peacefully (despite cautions of elements of Shi’ah philosophy) But once the extension of the army of Zion (the USUK army) attacked Iraq, we say their corruption eat away at its people, managed to turn themselves against each other.
the Scholars aren’t entirely blameless as they know the power their words have on their followers. Some people will shove square pegs through round holes to do what they think their ‘leader/scholar’ says, so the Scholars should pay more attention to addressing cautions of his own assessment of things.
Agreed about the need to contextualise the Qur’an, but interpretation as well as taking short abstracts can be used incorrectly too I feel.
One Imam talked about the word Kufur, saying it was used in the Qur’an to address a certain group of people (but you listing to me haven’t read the books I have so you didn’t know that, so you were using it wrongly). Well I I asked an Imam what evidence do you have that says that revelation is purely historical and not there to be applied to people today?
I have an “ability” to rapidly see the rubbish people say and do. My usual lack of will to be blunt with them (they would be offended to have their errors exposed) often means their claims rarely get the challenge they should. On rare occasions I do persue the matter and they quicly try to stonewall things and ‘close shop’.
You mentioned fatwa’s. Salman Rushdie comes to Mind. While the media portrayed most Muslims as agreeing with supposeldy Khomeini’s fatwa, I don’t think many Sunni’s actually thought he had the authority to decree such a thing. (Some Shi’ah too!). I read a book by the European Council of Fatwa Research. They said one can combine Magrib and Isha prayers together (do one after the other) in Northern latitudes. They also said using credit cards was ok. There are loads of cutting questions that should be asked about those fatwah’s but how many people followed it.
The State of the Ummah, where some Muslims blindly follow some human ‘fixings’ and yet don’t want to follow blind proclamations of others was predicted.
Research shows even the Caliphs changed the mass of gold in the dinar from the Byzantine solidus minted to a spec of 4.5g, changing to a coin minted by Muslims set to about 4.25g per dinar.
I very much like the personal responsibility aspect of what you say. I’d agree with it also.
As to the ‘Does God ‘do’ evil’ or ‘Does God allow for man to manifest the evil he wished he’, do you have an opinion on that?
If you want to understand the dynamic that drives Abd al-Qadar a-Sufi, read the English language novel “Elmer Gantry.” It could easily be re-titled “Elmer as-Sufi.” I’m serious. Read the book, and, better yet, go see the Phillip Seymour Hoffman film, “The Master.” If you draped Hoffman with a prayer shawl, you’d think you were looking straight at Ian Dallas. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a slick old hustler, and, I admire him for it. Look into the connection between E-Gold of Melbourne Fla. and E-Dinar of Abu Dabi, you’ll see how bright he really is.