International Conference 9/11 Revisited – Seeking The Truth

First published 6th Nov 2012 7:46

Perdana Global Peace Foundation (PGPF) associated with the excellent Criminalise War Conference and War Crimes Tribunal which later found George (Jackass) W. Bush and other US Neocons guilty of war crimes/crimes against humanity, are now advertising the International Conference about  ‘9/11’ the September 11th 2001 attacks on the United States. Here’s what they said:

Perdana Global Peace Foundation (PGPF) would like to invite you to the International Conference 9/11 Revisited – Seeking The Truth. Below are the details of the event:Monday, 19th November 2012

9.00am until 5.30pm

PWTC Kuala Lumpur

Please find the attached a copy of the program and the RSVP slipKindly RSVP by the 15th November 2012 by calling Aishah at +603 2092 7248 or fax it to +603 2273 2092 or by emailing it to aishah86@gmail.com

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Signposting our doom? 2

Minority report, Release date 2002 but filming took place from March 22 to July 18, 2001 – Wikipedia.

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Signposting our doom?

Jacobs Ladder (1990), Carolco Pictures Inc.

Died?
Oh Jesus, Jesus!
When?
How did it happen?
Blew up? What do you mean ‘blew up’?

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George Galloway interviews Paul Stott on 9 11 conspiracy theoories

I’m pasting a home made transcript of the below interview with George Galloway and Paul Stott. Will comment on it later and boy is there a lot to say about it

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Transcript:

GG: We’re going to talk to a man who I think will emerge in time as the principle debunker of the conspiracy theorists on 9-11. I had the privilege of interviewing today for my television show which goes out on Sunday night, and I immediately  thought that we should him to a wider audience and that wider audience is you. Let me say right up top that I have never argued, never, and don’t now, that there are many things about 9-11 that we do not know. And I’m certainly not saying that there are not things that raise very serious question marks. And I’m not saying, I’m definitely not saying, that George W Bush and Dick Chaney are not  capable of very nefarious deeds indeed. But I am saying and have always said, will continue to say until someone proves otherwise to me, that to allege, as many do, that this act of mass murder on 9-11 ten years ago was some kind of conspiracy by the Americans themselves, that it might not even been what we thought it was, that it might be for example that these planes were not planes or that these planes were empty, that the passengers were duped or stooges or agents or any of the other plethora of other conspiracy theories that I hear – I just don’t buy them. That doesn’t make me a part of the conspiracy – although many of you out there think I am. Most people listening will find this hard to believe, but there is a class of person on the internet that thinks I am an agent… for George W Bush. I’m not making that up. They think I’m covering for George W Bush. They think that the radicalism you hear from me most of the time, is actually a cover, that I’m a gate-keeper. So, I’ve decided to call in some expert witness and Paul Stott the editor of the 9-11 Cult-watch blog, who’s a distinguished academic, he’s my man. Paul., welcome to the show.

PS: Good evening George, you’re all-right?

GG” Yes. Give me your top 5 will you? What’s your top 5 debunking facts?

PS: Well, I think the first thing to talk about really George it’s why people get these theories and why they believe in some of these theories and I’ve spent a lot of time going to 9-11 truth meetings, speaking to truthers, arguing with them on the internet, and I think very often they have a general… there looking for certainty, there looking for explanations from a world that’s lost a lot of its certainties and they don’t really seem to believe in anything anybody tells them anymore which is probably the fault of some of the politicians you mentioned earlier and they find their answers on the internet, they find their answers on you YouTube and once they start it just becomes a viscous circle really.

GG: Well when I hear people say “I’ve been doing a bit of research”, I know that they mean they’ve been on the Internet. And this assumption that exists that if because something is written on the internet, that it’s true, astounds me.

PS: Yeah I mean there was a time George that if you wanted to understand about American Foreign Policy you would read a book by Chomsky to read a criticism of it, or you read a book by one of the neo-Cons if you were a supporter of a that foreign policy. That period seems to have long gone now. It’s all about little snippets of information, little you know it’s a a sort of three minute culture almost and we’re actually all the poorer for that.

GG: Well it’s the old adage that a little knowledge is dangerous and when people have got that little knowledge from the internet, it’s particularly dangerous

PS: Yeah

GG: Now lets deal with some of the main arguments

PS: OK

GG: The argument that in fact these towers could not have fallen down with only two large passenger plane jets flying into them, that they therefore must have been dynamited down. Answer that.

PS: OK. Well, first thing to say there’s absolutely no evidence that anything other than planes hit. So that’s one of the, you know, you get these no plane theory guys. For people to have brought the towers down with explosives – I don’t know if you’ve ever attended a demolition of an old tower block in London or Glasgow,

GG: Yes, I have yes,

PS: Or wherever, there quite lengthy periods and an enormous amount of cabling has to be laid. Nobody has been seen laying any cabling in either of the twin towers, there was no evidence of any workers going in you know laying the thousands of yards of cabling that would have been needed and to be brutally honest, if your flying two planes into the towers at great speed, why do you actually need also lay explosives?

There is actually some rather interesting research being done that makes the point that for both of the twin towers the NY authorities revoked certain building regulations when the twin towers have been built so that they could be build cheaper so I’m afraid there’s probably some evidence that thy were Jerry build and weren’t as sturdy as they should have been. But we’ve all seen the planes hit. We haven’t’ seen anything of explosives in there.

GG: Now, seems to me that the official versions weakest point is building 7.

PS: Yes…. I think with building 7 the line you always get from thruthers is the focus on this line of ‘Lets pull it”, that one of the owner of WTC7, is alleged to have made. In a way exactly the same arguments apply to World Trade Centre 7 as to 1 and 2. Nobody has been seen placing any explosives in there. A considerable conspiracy of an extremely large number of people would have been needed. No whistle-blowers have come forward, Nobody has been cited up to anything they shouldn’t have been. So, there’s just no evidence as week as strong or as strong as the official story may be. That’s the best story we have until somebody comes up with something else. The line “Let’s pull it” – that’s pretty vague. It could mean let’s putt it down in the future.

GG:  Yeah that’s not the main argument about building 7 though. The main argument is “How could it have fallen down?”

PS: Well you’ve just had two planes fly into tow neighboring buildings and those two building come down. You also have uncontrolled fires in that building. You’ve had the Jerry built nature arguably of some of the developments in the world trade centre complex. I think also there’s a background difficulty here George that what you get with 9-11 truthers is they set for everybody else the burdon of proof the prosecution., you know you’re expected to prove every single aspect of the story beyond all reasonable doubt whilst all they require themselves to do is to really play the role of a rather haphazard defence barrister, raising the odd doubt here and there and there’s enough. The world isn’t like that in practice.

GG: What about the Pentagon. They say that there’s no footage ever been released of an aeroplane striking the Pentagon. That the space that was destroyed in the façade of the building was not wide enough for it to have been the size of jet airliner it’s supposed to have been.

PS: Well the, first of all the Pentagon is a military building. By in large you don’t get a lot of footage being released of what’s going on inside all that military buildings. So I’m not hugely surprised we’ve not have every single camera shot of every single angle. The footage you had of the plane going in – you may have seen some news footage of it – the most likely explanation which you see a little bit of I think in the footage, the plane goes through and the wings have followed through, the debris of the wings has gone through behind the planes. It’s also worth noting that with the Pentagon that with the sort the truthers big theory on that emerges from a French guy, Theirry Maison. who wrote the book ‘The big lie’. Not unusually in 9-11 circles, that was actually a work of fiction that eventually got turned into a work of fact. Its’ the same with the film Loose Change. There’s a strong correlation in a way, a strong over-cross between fact and fiction in these circles.

GG: And lastly flight 93. What happened to it? Was it shot down or brought down but the passengers trying to lead a revolt?

PS: I think that’s a harder one. I think at the time of 9-11, America was battered, was humilated and was humbled.

GG: Needed some heroes.

PS: And so I thing that’s the only part of the sort of questions you’ve asked, I can see a little bit on both sides, George. I think we certainly know Bush had given instructions that any additional planes were to be shot down. You’ve got the whole sort of mythology of “Let’s Roll” and what have you. We’ll see on that, really. I’m open perhaps on discussion on that than anything else personally.

GG: Now, how do people follow your Cult Watch blog. What’s the website.

PS: Well, it’s my name, Paul Stott dot typepad dot com and then slash 9-11 Cultwatch or you can just Google my name, go onto the 9-11 Cultwatch blog. The reason really we talk about is from arguing and debating with some truth activists here in London. And you know the use of these terms ‘gatekeeper’, I mean I’m an academic Gatekeeper keeper,  Chomsky’s a left gatekeeper, You’re no doubt a media gatekeeper now. And I’m afraid it’s was rather reminiscent from talking to people from Cults, there’s very little, very little you can do to get through to people.

GG: Yeah, there are serious people with serious questions but there’s undoubtedly also a cult around this developed. Undoubtedly.

PS: Yes, yes, and I’m afraid I don’t really see that changing in the short term because obviously the more serious analysts, if you like, or those who’ve perhaps got more interesting arguments to say, there eventually gonna tire of the more you know wacko elements I’m afraid.

GG: That’s Paul Stott, S-T-O-T-T. Paul Stott if you Google him, you’ll end up on the cult watch blog. And it’s worth doing I can tell ya.

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Transcript Ends…

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Ryan Dawson. War by Deception by sections and bonus features

Source: http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15034&p=149416#p149416

War by Deception (sept 2010 rework) by sections
Chapter 1 Conspiracy Deniers vs Kooks ignore the extremes Covert ops are normal.
Chapter 2 Iran Contra comparison, 911 hypothesis
Chapter 3 Mass Media lies
Chapter 4 PNAC, Zionist origins for war hype This is the dry part of the film going over documentation, sorry I don’t have any giant owls or spooky symbolism to spice it up, but what I do have is reality, real people, real documented propaganda and real consequences.
Chapter 5 The Lemming Effect Neocons selling nuclear secrets, spies, lies, and Israeli ties
Chapter 6 Where was the cabal on 911?
Chapter 7 Anthrax and USreal Connecting Iraq and Al Qaeda to anthrax neither sent
Chapter 8 “Al Qaeda” Hijackers, are not what you’re told
Chapter 9 Disclaimer distancing from the 911 kook movement and Jones town sensationalism
Chapter 10 The 911 Commission/cover up
Chapter 11/12, 911 truck bombs and bombers caught Israelis released. WTC 7 and 911 damage control
Chapter 12/13 WTC 7 and the 911 damage control
The MIC How they waste your money[/size]
And what their long term plan is.
Extras
*The Bush and Schmitz families an orgy of global organized crime and weird sex scandals
* How They Fuck you 101
* DOD the revolving door
* Climate cultist don’t want you to see
* Iraq prewar lies chalk board flow chart
* Dear Richard Perle Fuck you (he even gets flicked off by a 1 year old)
* Obama same shit new ass hole
* Palestine RIP
* Blackmail… Congress possibly more backwards than the Vatican.

Anything not linked is loading. Chapter 10 is an extra. You can watch the film without it.
More information has recently come out about the 911 commission so what I am doing is making an extra chapter to go over the commission members first and then the bogus report separately. So check back for it.

_________________
END THE GOD DAMN WARS
This site is against war, Zionism, (or any other form of racism), profiteering, and all forms of government corruption, mass media deception, and cover ups. This is not a site to flail on about space aliens-illuminati-masonic-deathcult-jewish-catholic-lizard-lucifarian-jesuit-queen-barvarian-etc bull hockey. Take that junk somewhere else.
My Twitter
“It doesn’t matter who we are underneath. It is what we do that defines us.” Batman

“If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it or see it.
Would Israel still blame it on Iran?”-Ry Dawson

Google version of War by Deception (Magic Bunnies)
Pass HR 1207 and S604 audit the Fed

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Balls in a ballsless world

It is impossible to not comment on Ahmadinejad’s iron balls declaration that many around the world are suspicious that the 9-11 was an inside job. (I’m paraphrasing)

It was, of course.

The accumulation of all the evidence allows us to arrive at that decision. As it does regrding the crime of the war against Iraq.

It is noteable at who walked out… Largely ‘white-scum-nations’, you know, the centres of power that have brought untold misery to the good ordinary people of this planet for more centuries than I’d like to count, while having the chutzpah to calim they are the most righteous states that have ever been.

*puke*

The history of these obnoxious bastards lying, conducting black-ops/false-flags is undenyable, and the reaction of those devils who went along with these dasterdly events reveals perfectly that they have not the  slightest bit interest in the truth.

Daniel Ellsberg, David Shayler, Craig Murray, the leaker of the Collateral Damage video, etc etc etc… were all subject to to hostilities by the state when they pubically exposed the states can-of-worms. The same has (obviously) happening to Jaddie babes.

The walk-out Ahmadinejad got for pointing the spotlight on the crown jewels which these scum-states use for the lawlwss slaughter from Sept 2001 into the forseeable future, actually gives some vindication to what he said at the UN on behalf of millions across the world.He did the same thing about the other crown jewels… what some dubb the holohoax (or as Finklestein said of it: shoah business / holocaust industry).

According to the IBBC (Israyhelli British Broading Corporation), the delagates that walked out were the US, UK, all other EU states, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Costa Rica. Most of them being those scum-states which don’t give a bluebottles gonad about slaughtering millions.

In the age of lies, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

Well done President Ahmadinejad.

UPDATE:

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http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2010/09/201092417585294591.html

This is a dangerous game. Any UN ‘team’ will be studded with sabateurs, just like the original one was with that very slippery American Israyhelli Phillip Zlikow. So be careful Mahmood! You might get something that might thicken the muddy waters.

On a dad note: Marwan Bishara, an otherwise excellent journalist and intelligent man is acting like your commoner garden presstitute, saying of Ahmadinejad:

“So you can now say President Ahmadinejad is both a 9/11 denier and a Holocaust denier.” – source

Ridiculous!

Not to mention the fact Marwan is making the news here, tagging ‘value added’ properties onto the story, not reporting it or as journalists should do, challenge ahmadinejad on his claim and pick them apart. Marwan is an utter fool if he believes the 9-11 Commission Report. But hey, perhaps that’s why he’s precisely where he is.

Please note: In NONE of the Al Jazeera English reports is NO ONE including US citizens who agree with a new investigation is necessary, or wven those USans who believe their government did 9-11, or well known figures like the “(New)Jersey Girls”

In Their Own Words:

9/11 Press For Truth:

Al Jazeera English’s reportage here is certainly not to their credit. It is a very clear and display of operating firmly within the box of permitted dissent.

Shame.

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9/11 Towers (and WTC 7 of course) brought down by controlled demolition – Alan Hart mp3

Sometimes I copy and paste other peoples articles/blog entries. I do so when I think I’d like to see the story spread.

This is one of them. Original source:

mp3:  http://www.radiodujour.com/mp3/20100525-kevin-barrett-alan-hart.mp3
Website rip: http://mycatbirdseat.com/2010/05/alan-hart-breaks-silence-on-911-on-the-kevin-barrett-show/

ALAN HART: BREAKS SILENCE ABOUT 9/11 ON THE KEVIN BARRETT SHOW

– 27. May, 2010 in Commentary/Analysis, Israel, News/Politics, Palestine, U.S. Foreign Policy, Zionism –

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Senior BBC Mideast Correspondent: “Here’s what may have REALLY happened on 9/11″!

Breaking his self-imposed rule against talking about 9/11, former Senior BBC Mideast Correspondent and author Alan Hart described what he thinks may have really happened on that fateful day on yesterday’s Kevin Barrett show.

Hart, who got to know Yasser Arafat and Golda Meir while serving as a Security Council-briefed Mideast peace negotiator, said that he has been assured by a top-level demolitions/engineering expert who wishes to remain anonymous that the three World Trade Center skyscrapers were destroyed by controlled demolitions, not plane crashes and fires. (For the names of more than 1000 experts willing to go on the record with the same opinion, see http://www.ae911truth.org).

During the hour-long interview, Hart discussed Israel’s record of engaging in outrageous attacks on friend and foe alike, and spreading even more outrageous lies to cover them up. (Around the midpoint of the show he explained the real reason Israel attacked the U.S.S. Liberty in 1967.)

Regarding 9/11, Hart suggested that while there may have been some original terrorist plot conceived by fellow-travelers of Osama Bin Laden, the Israeli Mossad, with its near-total penetration of Middle Eastern governments and terrorist groups alike, would have quickly detected and hijacked the operation to its own ends, orchestrating a spectacularly successful attack on America designed to be blamed on its Arab and Muslim enemies. Hart added that the Mossad operation that became 9/11 would have been aided and abetted by certain corrupt American leaders.

Sounding a chilling note, Hart added that the U.S. is in grave danger of an Israeli-instigated false-flag nuclear attack, perhaps using an American nuclear weapon stolen from Minot Air Force Base during the “loose nukes” rogue operation of August, 2007. The motive would be to trigger a U.S. war with Iran, and perhaps to finish the ethnic cleansing of Palestine under cover of war–which Hart is convinced the Zionists are planning to do as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

When a warning this serious is delivered by a messenger with the stature of Alan Hart, the American people had better find a way around the news blackout imposed by the Zionist-dominated corporate and pseudo-alternative media. The only thing standing in the way of an Israeli false-flag nuclear attack on America, a disastrous US war on Iran, and a horrendous acceleration of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, is the awareness of the American people. Please copy, post, and mass-email this story.

Kevin Barrett
http://www.truthjihad.com
Author, Questioning the War on Terror: A Primer for Obama Voters: http://www.questioningthewaronterror.com

Alan Hart http://www.alanhart.net/ is a former ITN and BBC Panorama foreign correspondent who covered wars and conflicts wherever they were taking place in the world and specialized in the Middle East.

His Latest book Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews, is a three-volume epic in its American edition.  He blogs on http://www.alanhart.net and tweets on www.twitter.com/alanauthor.

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Here’s another article, this time from PrisonPlanet:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-construction-firm-wtc-destroyed-by-controlled-demolition.html

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Top Construction Firm: WTC Destroyed By Controlled Demolition

Veteran Middle East correspondent Alan Hart: Largest engineering firm studied collapse of twin towers and said there was no doubt it was a controlled explosion

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Respected Middle East expert and former BBC presenter Alan Hart has broken his silence on 9/11, by revealing that the world’s most prominent civil engineering company told him directly that the collapse of the twin towers was a controlled demolition.

Speaking on the Kevin Barrett show yesterday, Hart said he thought the 9/11 attack probably started as a Muslim operation headed up by Osama Bin Laden but that the plot was subsequently hijacked and carried out by Mossad agents in collusion with elements of the CIA, adding that since its formation, Israel has penetrated every Arab government and terrorist organization.

“My guess is that at an early point they said to the bad guys in the CIA – hey this operation’s running what do we do, and the zionists and the neo-cons said let’s use it,” said Hart, making reference to how top neo-cons like Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and their fellow Project For a New American Century authors had called for a “catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor,” the year before 9/11.

“The twin towers were brought down by a controlled ground explosion, not the planes,” said Hart, adding that this view was based on his close friendship with consultants who work with the world’s leading civil engineering and construction firm.

Hart asked the company to study the collapse of the twin towers, after which they told him directly, “There’s absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the towers were brought down by a controlled ground explosion.”

Hart then explained how the five dancing Israelis seen celebrating the attack on the World Trade Center in New Jersey as it unfolded, who turned out to be Mossad agents, proves at at a minimum Israel knew the attack was going to happen. Hart went further in speculating that the planes had been fitted with transponders and that the Israelis were guiding them in to the towers.

(ARTICLE CONTINUES BELOW)

Host Barrett pointed out that to carry out the successful controlled demolition of three of the biggest buildings in history, the conspirators would have to ensure that they were hit, making the use of remote controlled airliners a distinct possibility. In addition, Barrett mentioned the fact that he had interviewed numerous pilots who dismissed the chances of accurately guiding a huge commercial airliner into a building while flying at sea level at around 600 miles per hour, especially considering the alleged 9/11 hijackers struggled to even fly basic Cessna light aircraft.

“Sounding a chilling note, Hart added that the U.S. is in grave danger of an Israeli-instigated false-flag nuclear attack, perhaps using an American nuclear weapon stolen from Minot Air Force Base during the “loose nukes” rogue operation of August, 2007. The motive would be to trigger a U.S. war with Iran, and perhaps to finish the ethnic cleansing of Palestine under cover of war–which Hart is convinced the Zionists are planning to do as soon as the opportunity presents itself,” writes host Barratt.

Given his biography and standing, Hart’s comments are not to be taken lightly. Hart is a former Middle East Chief Correspondent for ITN News and has also presented for BBC Panorama specializing in the Middle East. He was also a war reporter in Vietnam and the first journalist to reach Suez Canal with the Israeli army in 1967. Over the decades, Hart has developed close relationships with numerous high profile political figures, including the Shah of Iran, Yasser Arafat and Shimon Peres.

Hart has been a successful author for years and has no reason to fabricate the fact that a top construction firm told him point blank that the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition.

In forwarding this information, Hart joins legions of other credible experts who to some extent or other have all publicly challenged the official 9/11 story, with many outright stating that the attacks were an inside job, people like 20-year decorated CIA veteran Robert Baer, who told a radio host that “the evidence points at” 9/11 having had aspects of being an inside job.

In addition, no less than 1198 architectural and engineering specialists have signed a petition demanding Congress re-open an official investigation into the 9/11 attack and the collapse of the twin towers.

Listen to the full interview with Alan Hart below. The 9/11 discussion begins at around the 35 minute mark.

http://www.radiodujour.com/mp3/20100525-kevin-barrett-alan-hart.mp3

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Is this really a “COLLAPSE”

Turn your volume off and watch the video. Is this really a “COLLAPSE”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSApOavkHg8

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I’m a scholar – so push off!

I’m a scholar – so push off!

 

I often get that feeling when hearing so called ‘knowledgeable people talk’. But as it’s a feeling, I concede it could be wrong. Such harsh and direct words are seldom spoken, but is it entirely your fault if that is the impression you are given?

 

Can scholars only be taught things from scholars above them? I don’t think so, but again, that’s the impression that comes across quite often when I hear supposed ‘scholarly’ people speak. “Your opinion isn’t more correct than mine because I have more knowledge that you” That seems very arrogant. How does the ‘scholar’ know the full extent of the “less scholarly” persons line of reasoning and the extent of his knowledge?

 

This does NOT mean a supposedly learned person should not be allowed to say “No”, or “I think you are wrong” to somebody, but they MUST EXPLAIN WHY it may be wrong. Because the scholars explanation might be flawed and if so, it should show itself as the scholar is delivering his explanation.

 

Failure to openly discuss sounds alarm bells with me. It’s a near sure-fire sign that the ‘scholar’ is grasping at straws – and I suspect if they were honest with themselves – they would admit it.

 

And it’s worse when others blindly defend so called scholars/wise men. Admiration of some flawed man to the extent that you will never listen to others pointing out the flaws in his argument is actually a disgrace on you. For you attribute flawlessness onto that person which is dabbling in Shirk (putting something at the same level of God). If you want to stick up for someone, fine! Good! Some people are great people. Some are very wise, some very moral. But you too must address the issues relating to the criticism of that person.

 

Aren’t all men (and all men that have ever been) flawed in some way. They are MEN yes? They are NOT God, yes? So aren’t they flawed?

 

Idolisation of men is rife these days. By that I mean idol supporters refuse to listen to valid criticism of their idols/heros – and most importantly refuse to see if there is any basis behind such criticism.

 

What’s this latest thing that is putting ants in my pants?

 

 

All this kicked off from the following article: Conspiracy Practice by Shaykh Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi, which honestly speaking, contains really preposterous elements to it. I sent off a letter to the gentleman concerned and got no reply. I then had a ‘conversation’ about it with someone who I would regard as scholarly. The author of the piece, Shaykh Abdal Qadir as Sufi is a respected scholar., indeed one of my good friends told me about him some time ago.

 

 

The heart of a discussion involved God, 9-11 and Evil. {BTW: The scholar rejected forensic evidence as the basis for saying it legally proves(within Islamic jurisprudence that  9-11 was an inside job, and Shaykh Dr. Abdalqadir as-Sufi totally ignored any mention of any physical evidence}

 

Does God ‘do’ evil? Does God create evil? Is God responsible for evil? Did God ‘do’ 9-11? Are there any differences between those statements?.. etc…

 

In the conversation, the scholarly person said the answer was “Yes”. God Decrees evil.

 

It presupposed some Islamic beliefs. As we are both Muslims, that is understandable. The scholars reasoning went something like this…

 

Nothing can be outside the Tawhid (Oneness) of God. Everything is created by God. If evil or badness exists it is because God created it. Everything is within Gods domain. The scholar is saying God has decreed everything, evil and 9-11.

 

I was told “there is no dispute among people of knowledge about this.”

 

I could feel sore about the insult, I want my Islamic brotherly feeling towards him try and help me ignore it, although I would be lying to say I have the strength of character to let it go without residual unhappy feelings :(

 

But to me, what this person said seemed to be something like blasphemy. I was willing to accept this view if it was explained to me.

But it wasn’t.

A few interpretations which could equally be interpreted in another way was all that was offered.

 

Thing is, I feel like I’m in a bit of a panic! Because if he is right, then I must be a terrible Muslim because he is saying I am putting something outside Gods power.

 

I certainly don’t intend to say that, but I know full well that people who believe in something can be blinded by it, and in fact, the Qur’an warns that there are people who have no perception of them being on the wrong path. Is this happening to me? Am I somehow unable to see any really bit pitfall that I’m in? It could well be – The Qur’an indicates so, and I’m not going to argure against the Qur’an.

 

 

So I pursued the matter, quite scared that my belief and understanding of God* had for years been seriously flawed.

 

I put to him my understanding of the situaton, and asked a few Q’s of him, but my points went unanswered as were my questions, unless you call ‘answering a question with a question’ an answer. On rare occaison ok, I can tolerate that, but surely, to keep on doing that gets a bit silly.

 

When one answers a Q with a Q, (in terms of having honourable intentions) is usually to get the questioner to reflect on their initial Q, because the initial Q may have been flawed/illegitimate, and the person bouncing back the Q, wants the initial questioner to see that. But surely there is a fine line between doing that (as a way of improving learning and discourse) and being annoying. When abused, it can be a sign of “I’m an intellectual fortress don’t you know?” or “I’m a scholar – so push off!” It’s dam easy to answer a Q with a Q. Repeatedly doing so isn’t polite when it provokes agitation. And there is no sanctity of conforming to the movie portrayl of Asian-mystic/Kung-Fu/Buddhist apprentice scenes, where it’s a measure of the ‘good apprentice’ is governeed by how much he can take all the riddles and so forth from his ‘wise’ master like the modern characterature of Confucius or Lao Tzu.

 

Is it an absolute necessity for a wise man to answer a question with another question? I think just giving the answer is useful too! But hey, I’m not a scholar so I would say that right???

 

On one occasion however, the scholar took what I said, inverted it and said words to the effect that he couldn’t believe I said that. I was flabbergasted.

 

I said “there is no dependence on the Creator by creation”

 

He replied: “[the statement] is entirely the opposite of the reality; the creation is completely dependent on the Creator for its existence, for its attributes and for its actions.”

 

Was my crappy typing and worse spelling wasn’t to blame here? I don’t think so. What I said was perfectly clear. When I pointed out to him that his ‘correction’ was in fact exactly what I had said, he offered no apology at all, even though what he said I had ‘said’, was really something terrible!

 

Well, more of the convo was quite unsatisfactory. In line with what we were saying I said to him “I have never found any reference to ‘God decrees evil’ in the Qur’an. this could well be a failing on my behalf. Could you please give me the Surah and Ayat? It is quite important.”

 He offered:

“35 Every self will taste death. We test you with both good and evil as a trial. And you will be returned to Us.” (21:35)”

 

Now I may be wrong here, but in the context of My belief that God does NOT ‘do’ evil, the ‘test’ here is, man by his free will, has the ability to do good and evil. If he is righteous he will pass the test and avoid doing evil? the scholar seemed to be saying God will put evil upon us and if we come through that evil then we have passed the test. I think our lines of reasoning are quite different.

 

The scholar said supported his position “The good and the evil are of His decree.“ and “Iman is that you believe in… and that the decree, the good of it and the bad of it is from Allah.”

 

The scholar quoted:

 

“Every self will taste death. We test you with both good and evil as a trial. And you will be returned to Us. (21:35)” Remember we inherited an idea of evil as an absolute, but that is not our perspective as Muslims. Good and evil are relative. Allah is the absolute.

 

“He [Jibril] said, ‘Tell me about iman.’ He [the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace] said, ‘That you believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and that you believe in the Decree, the good (khayr) of it and the bad (sharr) of it.’ He [Jibril] said, ‘You have told the truth.’”

 

Imam an-Nawawi said: The position of the people of Truth is confirmation of the Decree. Its meaning is that Allah decreed things before time, and He knew that they would come about at times known to Him and in places known to Him, and that they would come about according to how Allah had decreed.

 

Imam an-Nawawi further said: Allah created good and bad, and decreed their coming to the slave at known times. … He (Allah) said, “Say, ‘I seek refuge with the Lord of daybreak, from the evil of what He has created…'””

 

 

It is clear the scholar is saying my understanding of God is wrong and that he believes evil is by Gods decree.

 

Frustratingly he repeatedly failed to answer my subsequent points.

 

I replied:

 

[That] Is very interesting statement (Re:He decreed everything that has been, that is and that is to be. The good and the evil are of His decree.). No body can second guess God, but I’ve never heard anyone claim God decrees evil! I was of the opinion God decreed within man the abilty of free will. That free will and physical eminations thereof, is allowed to have consequence. {I’m saying when man exercises that free will he causes evil}

 

The 99 names Allah Ta’ala are positivisms. They are not coupled or in anyway connected with their antonym. {I am saying there is no ‘bad’ attributes of God}

 

The evil will of man did 9-11, not God’s evil.

 

 

It was immensely frustrating that he totally avoided the ‘free will’ issue. I see it like this… God knows everything. He knows the tiniest details of our lives, even those which haven’t happened yet. He knows ALL pathways our lives could ever travel down.

 

His decree is that that we have free will – the choice. His Decree means that if we choose a branch point on the path of life, then his prescribed decree for that particular choice or path will therefore happen. He therefore knows the outcome of our choices before we make them. A critical question is, does he know WHICH choice we will make. I would have to say yes, but then we run into the problem of “Was it then free will?” and “Did God decree that choice?” I’d have to say No, God didn’t decree/force us to make that choice (but he does and can force a consequence of that choice). If he Decreed that path it wouldn’t have been an actual ‘choice’. It would make an irrelevance out of our free will. So what of the question “Did he know the choice we were going to make?”

 

The scholar (if we were to actually address my points) might have said “You are saying Allah(SWT) doesn’t know which path we are going down and therefore God is ignorant of something – which is clearly impossible.

 

I think it’s fair to say without question that he knows the outcome of the choice, but did he know which choice we would make? Yes, God knows everything, but he didn’t force it upon is. I don’t see any problem with that.

 

Well, we are trying to second guess God using Human logic which seems very likely to me to actually be a ridiculous thing to do. And for a human stuck in physical time to understands things that don’t conform to linear time is also very difficult. God of course not only because he is indepenedent of and the creator of time, knows everything. He knows what is uncertain for us.

 

 

At the risk of repeating myself, Can what the scholar said “Allah creates and decrees both good-khayr and bad-sharr.” Could that mean He Decrees if man decides to do an evil act then that evil act shall come about – i.e. God creates /brings forth the pathway that the evil doer wants to happen? The scholar seemed to say no (but didn’t say so directly) and me, of the unscholarly opinion, thinks the answer is yes.

 

If there was no man, would there be evil? I don’t think there would. The Angels are incapable of evil as they have no free will. Didn’t Iblis exercise free will (and therefore can’t be an angel) and refused to obey Gods command to bow before man? Is there not another lesson that free will allows for the evil to occur? Allah(SWT) allowed the choice for evil to actually bring about evil.

 

 Is my understanding of God wrong? Should I see evil as a Decree from God in the sense that God initiates evil as the scholar was suggesting, and not that God creates it in the sence he creates it and allows it to happen consequentially on the desires of men to do evil acts?

 

-As usual I’ll probably have to come back at a later date and ‘fix’ aspects this post. Try as I might I seem unable to adjust my copy and paste composition / multiple rewrites of various parts, even on the small scale, So there is likely to be silly errors and typos and other errors in this post. But it is sincere, and I really want to know..

 

  

footnote:

 

* I mean in as much as a person can understand God. I have often thought it futile to understand/debate God because I, as a silly little human with a brain the size of melon, with a conscious mind so full of silly things and strange habits/behaviours, and being a person of a meaningless life (outside worshiping Allah(SWT) and that such a life span is really amazingly short, and that I need to rely on silly human flawed models to understand the physical universe, entirely based on things I have previous knowledge. All that means, if such an explanation was ever needed in the first place, that I or anyone can never ever hope to understand God in anything near His Glory. It is not debated that we have the choice to do evil right?. Anyway, to end with, the best case for God, to stop second guessing him according to silly human notions, is the Qur’an. I as a silly person cannot ever hope to explain God even on the tinyest scale than the Qur’an can.

 Reading the Qur’an is the guidance for everyone.

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Eid Message from Mullah Omar

I don’t give a monkeys gonad what your opinions are about me reproducing this here. If it displeases you then tough crap – go somewhere else – try the BBC or some Zionazi’s website. Thankfully however, the kind of people who read this picoscopic corner of the www won’t mind one bit. 

I on the other hand have long felt it overdue that we hear from the people (if the article is genuine) that have been horrendously accused of gargantuan and unIslamic crimes and had their families and feinds bombed to smithereens for nearly 8 years already. 

Source = http://www.uruknet.org.uk/index.php?p=m58109&hd=&size=1&l=e. (also under cyber attack) 

Eid Message from Mullah Omar

Mullah Mohammad Omar Mujahid

  

Amir-ul-Momineen Mullah Mohammad Omar 

September 19, 2009 

Message of Felicitation of Amir-ul-Momineen on the Occasion of Eid-ul-Fitr 

Praise be to Allah, Who exalted Islam and Muslims and debased polytheism and the polytheists. Peace be on the leader of the Mujahideen, the noble of the Apostles and Messengers and peace be on his descendants, companions and all those who follow his guidance. 

Having said that, I would like to state: The Almighty Allah says: “Say: Truly my prayer and my service of sacrifice, 

My life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds.” 6:162. 

I extend my heart-felt felicitation to all heroic Mujahideen, the pious people, the families of martyrs of the sacred frontlines of Islam and to all Islamic Ummah on the occasion of the Eid-ul-fitre and congratulate them for their having performed the sacred obligation of fasting. I pray to Allah, to accept in His sight all the worships and sacrifices that they offered. May Allah pass these days of love, brotherhood and joy in an atmosphere of happiness, prosperity and victory over the invading enemy. I congratulate you all for the historical victories achieved in the honorable frontlines of Jihad this current year. May Allah accept the martyrdom of the martyrs and the struggles of the Mujahideen in this blessed and holy path? 

Availing of this opportunity, I deem it necessary to put forward the following points before you all: 

a) I assure our brave people and the gallant Mujahideen that the plans of global colonialism for occupation of Afghanistan has faced failure because of your self-less sacrifices. During the past eight years, NATO under the leadership of the militarists of Pentagon, implemented a policy of brutality and atrocity, hoping that they will subjugate the brave people of Afghanistan by dent of military power. They used their sophisticated and cutting-edge technology including chemical weapons in order to achieve that end; employed hundreds of centers of propaganda and spent billions of dollars to portray image of their military power in a palatable way and terrorize their counterpart opposition. But all these anti-human activities could not give them success. With the passage of time, the resistance and the Jihadic movement, as a robust Islamic and nationalist movement, assumed the shape of a popular movement and is approaching the edge of victory. 

The invaders should study the history of Afghanistan from the time of the aggression of the Alexander, to the Ganges of the yore and to this very day and should receive lesson from it. Still, if they are bent on ignoring the history, then they themselves saw with their own eyes, the events of the past eight years. Have they achieved any thing in the past eight years? Even if they are not ready to review the loss and benefits of these years, at least, they should ponder over the consequences of the extensive operations launched under the name of Khanjar “sword” and the panther�s claw. What did they achieve? Is this disgrace and historical defeat not enough for them (to take lesson)? 

Though the double-faced media has kept their public ignorant of the facts but their government are well aware of the ground realities�the huge casualties and the sagging morale of their soldiers. The more the enemy resorts to increasing forces, the more they will face an unequivocal defeat in Afghanistan 

It is clear from the statements of the military sources of NATO and America and the information disclosed by captured soldiers that material and life losses of the invaders are several times higher than what they acknowledge. Any way, the policy which they have adopted will only prolong the current crisis but will never solve it. This is because the existence of foreign troops in Afghanistan and the invasion is in itself an issue, not a solution�even a big issue in its own right. 

The rampant corruption in the surrogate Kabul administration, the embezzlement, drug trafficking, the existence of mafia networks, the tyranny and high-handed ness of the warlords, and spread and increase of the centers of obscenity being materialized as per the previously contemplated plans, are part of the colonial ambitious and conspiratorial accords. This has driven the people to face poverty, starvation and unemployment to the extent that they were forced to sell their children. 

Despite the crimes of the invaders, another brazen atrocity is that, that they imposed a corrupt and stooge administration on the people once again by the pretext of the so-called elections which were fraught with fraud and lies and which were categorically rejected by the people. It is very natural that the gallant and free people are not ready to accept the results of these illegitimate elections. Therefore, first of all the issue of the existence of the invading forces in the country should be solved and Afghanistan must find its place as a sovereign country on the map of the world. The internal issues among the Afghans can be solved but in circumstances of occupation, ( our ) national and Islamic interests come under the shadow of the interests of the foreigners and our national and Islamic interests readily fall prey to the interests and conspiracies of global colonialism. 

Our goal is to gain independence of the country and establish a just Islamic system there on the basis of the aspirations of the Muslim nation. We can consider any option that could lead to the achievement of this goal. We have left open all options and ways towards this end. However, this will only be feasible when the country is free from the trampling steps of the invading forces and has gained independence. 

b) The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan wants that the true sons of this land should have participation in the government and in the government-making, following the withdrawal of foreign forces from Afghanistan– because the rehabilitation work, economic, political , educational and cultural affairs of the country can never go along way without participation of knowledgeable , professional and experienced sincere Afghans. Fortunately, a great number of our independent, professional, experienced Muslims cadres, whether they are inside the country or outside, have not submitted to the current occupation, nor they accept the administration brought about as a result of the occupation. They support an independent, free and Islamic government in the country. 

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has distinctive and useful plans for the future of Afghanistan under the shade of the just social system of Islam after the withdrawal of the foreign forces. They include rehabilitation of social and economic infrastructure, advancement and development of the educational sector, industrializations of the country and development of agriculture. 

c)The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan calls on all those who work in the surrogate Kabul administration and shore up the global colonialism by their being there to stop opposing your religion, country and people. The foreign colonialists take strength from your Afghan arm and continue their occupation of our country. These brutal invaders have trampled down on all our Islamic values; they work for dissemination and spread of Christianity under a previously worked-out plan; they plunder our natural resources under one and another name and put heavy burdens of loans on our country. The Islamic Emirate has left door of safety open for whomever depart with the ways of betrayal and treason with the country and people. 

All should bear in mind that the current popular Islamic revolution against the invaders is forging ahead like a powerful flood. Any one who opts to resist it will himself be washed away. Atrocity, torture, brutality, conspiracies, coalitions, the foreign forces and mercenaries could not hurl stumbling blocks in the way of this robust Jihadic movement. It is better to side with your people to fulfill the obligation required by the belief and gain historical honor, particularly the former Mujahideen who now work in the stooge administration should make for their infamy by joining the ranks of Jihad and abandon the ranks of the non-believers. 

D ) The Islamic Emirate (IE) believes in social and internal reform as well as in positive initiatives in the context of Sharia. IE is aware of the in discrepancies. Therefore, it obliges all Mujahideen to strictly observe the rules and regulations so that all Mujahideen will continue to wage Jihad as sincere sons of the country for the prosperity of the masses under the framework of Islamic Sharia. Thus, they will become both true protectors of the frontlines of independence and representatives of the fundamental wants of the people. 

The Islamic Emirate considers the purge of its ranks and self-accountability an everlasting and necessary obligation. 

The enemy has faced defeat in the field of the battle and it is not far way that it will swallow the bitter poison of a complete defeat. But as a last tactic, it is trying to spread seed of disunity and division among the nation to turn its defeat into victory. Praise be to Allah, the High, that the enemy is facing a fiasco in its hypocritical efforts. The Islam-loving and country-loving people consider it a religious obligation to keep the unity and assist the Mujahideen. They see independence of the dear country as their legitimate right and believe the western media serves only as a loudspeaker of Pentagon. They will never be misled by their fatuous propaganda. The sympathy, affinity and enchantment of the people play a great role in the unprecedented advancement of the Mujahideen. Praise be to Allah, the enchantment of people and their affinity grows day by day. Therefore, the Mujahideen should not think themselves to be a separate entity from the people. They should protect their property, life and honor and stop those who, under the name of Mujahideen, want to encroach on the property, life and honor of the people–readily by the provocation of the enemy. Similarly, Mujahideen should focus on the Islamic education of the masses, so that they would voluntarily participate in Jihad in person and by wealth. The people should remain aware to avoid being tricked by the empty bluffs of some military commanders or the statement of a British military commander saying that we would remain in Afghanistan for forty years. 

We would like to point out that we fought against the British invaders for eighty years from 1839 to 1919 and ultimately got independence by defeating the Britain. Today we have strong determination, military training and effective weapons. Still more, we have preparedness for a long war and the regional situation is in our favor. Therefore, we will continue to wage Jihad until we gain independence and force the invaders to pull out. 

When we notified all regarding the unprecedented momentum and impetus in the resistance in our previous statement, they were not just propaganda-oriented empty words. All witnessed the momentum in action. We warn once again that our ensuing aggressive operations will be characterized by effective tactics which will enter a phase where the enemy will have unparalleled casualties and constant defeats, if God willing. 

e)The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan wants to maintain good and positive relations with all neighbors based on mutual respect and open a new chapter of good neighborliness of mutual cooperation and economic development. 

We consider the whole region as a common home against colonialism and want to play our role in peace and stability of the region. We assure all countries that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, as a responsible force, will not extend its hand to cause jeopardy to others as it itself does not allow others to jeopardize us. 

We would like to say, we are victims of the black propaganda of the enemy media. This has created doubts between us and a number of countries of the world. They have wrongly depicted us as a force being against education and women�s rights. They also accuse us of our being a threat to the countries of the world. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan wants to clear away all these doubts provided a conducive atmosphere is available. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan calls on the public of the West not to be deceived by the assertions of Obama, who says the war in Afghanistan, is a war of necessity. The West does not have to wage this war. This war, in fact, started for clandestine motives under baseless reasons. The humanity, as a whole, suffers from its negative consequences. The global economic meltdown, instability, lack of trust and violation of international norms is the outcome of the baseless policies (of this war). 

The public of the West should also not be deceived by the assertions of the General Secretary of NATO and British Prime Minister who claim the war in Afghanistan is for the defense of the West. Such deceiving and baseless utterances must not confuse you. These are just demagogic efforts of your rulers aimed at justifying this unlawful and long imposed war in contravention of all international principles. 

No country in the world has right to meddle in the internal affairs of its neighboring country according to the modern international principles. The arrogant powers-that-be at the White House and its British Ally should know their interference from thousands of kilometers away is never acceptable to the countries of the region and can never be tolerated. The plans of colonial expansionism which is under way in the region under the notorious and unlawful slogan of war on terrorism is, in fact, an endeavor against the universal human values, justice, peace, equal distribution of resources and independence– an endeavor tainting the true representatives of the aspirations of the people under one or another name. All countries, particularly the Islamic countries, our neighbors, the powerful countries, the movement of the non-aligned countries should feel and fulfill their historical role. 

I urge the Islamic Ummah, particularly the Islamic and Jihadic organizations to remain aware of the conspiracies of the enemy; abandon the internal differences and begin a concerted and comprehensive struggle for the defense and freedom of the oppressed and occupied Ummah. 

To end, I urge all God-fearing Muslims, as they themselves share the joy and happiness of this occasion with their families, should not forget the widows of the martyrs, orphans and mothers who have lost their sons. They are the martyrs who laid down their lives against the bloc of the infidels for the establishment of Islamic system. Similarly, do not forget the bereaved families of those Afghan victims including old men, young, women, children who have been martyred as a result of the blind bombardment of the invaders and are no more among you. 

Finally, I extend my felicitation to you on the occasion of Eid-ul-fitre and wishing you independence. 

–Hoping and praying for obtainment of independence and establishment of a complete Islamic system. 

Mullah Mohammad Omar Mujahid 

Amir-ul-Momineen 

The Servant of Islam 

  

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A Statement from what we are told is the Taliban:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24222.htm 

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A Word From The Taliban 

Regarding the Invaders Recent Brutalities.

  

Remarks of Z. Mujahid, Spokesman of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan

  

December 18, 2009 “Information Clearing House” — The public of the world, particularly, our country men know that the invading forces usually detain miserable Afghans under various pretexts and then mercilessly torture them. These atrocities have been continuing at the hand of the invaders for the past eight years. Besides these, there are other savageries being committed by the invading forces. Even mass murder has been committed by the cut- throat troops. But the so-called advocates of the human rights and the international community have always turned a blind eye to all these crimes. They have never put out a protest nor issued any word of condemnation, despite that the atrocities have been continuing unabatedly. Here, we present our readers with facts about the following gruesome events: 

On October 22, foreign invaders killed two Afghan prisoners and put their dead bodies near Kikorak Shrine in Sabari district. Earlier, the brutal invaders had arrested them in Sara Bagh during a night raid on their houses. One week before this gruesome incident, foreign invaders in Khost, had detained Haji Badshah Khan, a resident of Bak district. They killed him pointblank and put his dead body in a dried river bed near Sara Bagh Bus stop. He had been mercilessly tortured to death by the callous foreign troops. A few days ago, the cut-throat invading forces, detained Nadeem, resident of Ali Sher district and Noor Wazir, resident of Moli area of Sabari district. They were on their way home, riding on motor cycles after doing shopping in Khost Bazaar. The invading American troops signaled them to stop and arrested them forthwith. Then, the brutal soldiers killed them at Khana Kandaw during the night and left their corpses there. They had been tied up with shackles and ropes usually used by American and foreign soldiers. American trained dogs had devoured flesh of their bodies. In Laghman, Kunduz, Zabul and Ghazni provinces, similar brutalities have taken place. 

In our view, the cunning and coward enemy suffers material and soul losses every day. They lose dozens of military tanks as a result of face-to-face battles with Mujahideen. Therefore, they vent their revenge on innocent people, to create rift and hatred between Mujahideen and the common people intentionally. But it should be made clear to them, if the enemy resorts to such horrendous actions in order to weaken the morale of the people, so that they would withdraw their support from the Mujahideen., they are wrong. Their inhuman actions will only give rise to creating sensitivities against the invaders and they will face a shameful defeat with the passage of time. 

The Afghans have never subjugated by foreign invaders throughout the history nor have they accepted existence of foreign invaders on their soil. They have always struggled in the way of freedom and succeeded, in the long run, in liberating not only their land but lands of other occupied people thanks to their self-less sacrifices. 

The people of Khost and human rights entities themselves witnessed the dead bodies of these miserable Afghans. We call on all human right organizations not to remain silent over the massacre of common people any more and conduct a neutral investigation about the killings and live up to the expectation for what they have been established to begin with. 

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